" Compassion Doesn't Violate Boundaries, It Grounds Them," with Sandra Hunter, on Epigenetic Grief, Compassionate Leadership, Art, and Iceland.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: , [00:00:00] hello everyone. Welcome to the Intersection podcast program. And, this morning I'm so thrilled, um, because the guest I'm having today, I have been asking her for a long time, I think over a year. And, um, I'm not saying that I'm hurt, but she rejected me many times. Um. Finally she said, oh, fine, fine, I'll do it.

Uh, but , in seriousness, I'm very honored to have, uh, my Sanja and, uh, my, my Sanja, my friend and my colleague, uh, Sandra Hunter, uh, to be here with us today. She's the. Founder and lead consultant at Empower Her and, uh, Sandra and I met maybe a couple years ago also doing people and cultural work.

Uh, and then I think we met at [00:01:00] like a panel discussion or something.

Sandra: Yeah.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: but I have been just very, um, grateful and feel blessed to have Sandra. In my life. Um, so without overdue, I want to, uh, invite Sandra to introduce herself and give us her story. Welcome, Sandra.

Sandra: Thanks so much, Joe. It's lovely to be here. And I just want to say that pushing you off for a year had less to do with you than

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Obviously.

Sandra: what it was I was really doing instead of just coming on and waffling about things is what am I doing in my world? Um, so I am, uh, an empowerment coach, uh, primarily for women. And the idea in what I do is to help people facing race and gender bias in the workplace that are inhibiting, uh, strangling and suppressing their ability to move forward successfully in their careers. And to do that, [00:02:00] start with understanding. What underlies those feelings? 'cause very often you arrive at feelings,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: in grief or not in grief, or just anxiety or intimidation or frustration, you're very aware of those feelings.

You know, I'm feeling frustrated because my boss won't consider this promotional opportunity I want. But that those feelings are actually sourced and rooted much, much further back and often have to do with back pocketed or delayed grief.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: The thing about our lives is our lives are really performative. We're expected to reach certain standards in the professions that we are engaged in, otherwise we wouldn't have been engaged in them in the first place. So you have to reach these standards. You have to, um. know, you have to complete and present [00:03:00] projects. You have to continue to engage clients, expand your client base, you dealing with vendors and collaborators and community partners, and all of that is performative.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Grief and loss, which is what we're talking about, those things that inhibit us from actually moving forward. And grief, by the way, I just want to say is, is about those large losses, like, you know, divorce or death or a medical diagnosis.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: But it also includes things like um, being excluded from, uh. A professional lunch and not having access to development opportunities. Being ghosted. Oh, for goodness sake, you know, that's a big one. of all those people who are sending out hundreds and hundreds of job applications and never hearing back or getting the interview, getting to the interview and then never hearing back. friend of mine actually got the interview, scored the job in the interview, and [00:04:00] then was ghosted.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Wow.

Sandra: So, you know, all of those things can accumulate over

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: And the problem is if you don't actually address it when the, you know, when the more dramatic grief, if you think, if you want to call it that, turns up, then it becomes an accumulation of all the grief that you haven't acknowledged or dealt with before.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: And going back than that, the source of all of this is epigenetic grief. So the griefs of our mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers, and we often don't understand that that's how we got where we are. Why are we so inhibited? Why are we not having upward influence? Why are we not, you know, gaining those promotions?

Why are we not succeeding? Why do I always feel inhibited when I'm in a, you know, group of people And this can be traced back. And the interesting thing now, it's not just, uh, an emotional claim. There's [00:05:00] actually neurological data that supports that. So if you have a tendency to be hypervigilant, there is actually an epigenome response in your brain that goes back generations.

And that's why you are where you are now. So. It's really important that you understand that in order for you to, and what we do is not therapy. Uh, we're not sort of counseling people about how to, that's a separate, um, practice, which obviously you should do. What we do is to say, you need to know about this because this is part of who you are and this is also how you will gain strength. Centering and ability move further forward. Understanding that all those things that come at you, let's take for example, microaggressions. Uh, understanding that that's got nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the person who is projecting their bad feelings onto you. They've had, you know, something else is going on [00:06:00] with that. Once you understand that it's not directed at you, you can be far more. and logical and creative about your career path. So that's basically, uh, what we do. Uh, we also do a lot of intergenerational work, which looks at people who are retiring or approaching retirement in the industry having them mentor the incoming generation of young people in their careers.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: That's cool.

Sandra: So it has a lot of benefits. Um, obviously, you know, we reduce the revolving door syndrome. We reduce onboarding, you know, the costs of onboarding, and we actually start lining up people to take over those, um, managerial positions as part of the professional family. And not saying it is a family, it's family.

Like I know people like to claim, oh, we're a family. You're not a family, you're at work. [00:07:00] Okay. there is a family-like tendency in grandfathering in young people who are coming in. So they are mentored throughout their journey, their council, throughout their journey with these people who are retiring.

And when you retire, I mean the, the organization will lose a lot of money anyway because all that wisdom retirees take wisdom has gone.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Right.

Sandra: Whereas you can legacy that in with mentorship. And, you know, understanding the, the roles of mentorship and sponsorship. And so as the mentors, the, the retirees get to know their mentees coming in and bringing them in. can teach their mentees how to mentor in their term, the next generation that comes in. So you have a kind of loop.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: And there's stability for the company. Again, you know, there's huge savings and you know, the benefits are, and loyalty is [00:08:00] unbelievable when you are, when you're bringing in mentors or mentees. Also, um, let's say somebody in HR is mentoring a young person, coming in, some, you know, this, the, the person who is mentoring is about to retire in say, maybe two years time. And they start mentoring someone in and it, this person who's coming in does enjoy doing HR work, they also have a lot of technical skills that aren't being used. And in that way we can have lateral position. Um. Fulfillment.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So it requires that mentors don't become siloed. That we actually, you know, have a network a grounding in the fact that, you know, people meet all the time to talk about what's going on with their mentees

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: strengths they have and how to, you know, what's the most successful course for them. So that's one of the, um. That's one of the ones that we've been [00:09:00] doing, we're starting to do, I got here was because I taught in academia for about 19 years

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: and I watched my, particularly my young female students, and so well credentialed, so alert and bright and vivid and creative. And they'd score the interview, get the job, and face the same race and gender bias that we've all

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: Right? So then we have this and reduction of ability and brightness, and then eventually the flame goes out and you either have someone who's just putting in the hours or eventually leaving.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: huge loss to the organization as well, to the individual. So it felt to me, you know, we have a massive gap between the educational institution and the beginning of a young person's career. What do we do to bridge that?

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So the first thing, and again, you know, I'm going back to mentorship, which I've just talked about, but at the be in the beginning it was just, you know, at a university [00:10:00] you've got all these resources, you've got st and I wanted to use staff, not faculty. All these staff people who have a wealth of information and experience.

So, uh, admin and custodial and maintenance and operations, all those people would be fabulous as mentors. And the idea was to link those people up with the graduating students. as we started working with those people. We realized that the damage that they had sustained over the years from these biases, uh, in the workplace were deeply affecting them.

So, okay, so let's stand back and start looking at those people. And then we started working things went gangbusters for a couple of years, and then I realized, um, as I was following and monitoring what was happening post programs.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: At the three months mark, there was a steep drop off. It was, okay, so what is happening there?

Why? [00:11:00] Because everybody was so gung ho, you know, now I've got the tools and now I'm gonna do this. And off they went. And they'd have a couple of people from the programs they still stayed in touch with, but there was still this drop off. And when I took a year off, which was the year when I, I was not ready to talk about anything. After lot of reading, uh, including res mannequin, bio Lafe, Francis Mary, Francis O'Connor, Isabelle Wilkerson, that was new to me. I realized that this is the root of everything was epigenetic grief.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sandra: So we revised everything, uh, last year. And so now that's where we start. And the work I'm doing now at the Grief House, and we'll be starting with at the Lantern in March. Both Portland based, uh, groups will be focused on. Looking at epigenetic grief and mapping, doing physical maps of your journey, and it's not a linear [00:12:00] journey or linear map. It's and it has offshoots and it runs off the map at certain points. It's just when you externalize these deeply rooted feelings, you start to understand there is a shape to them.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: It doesn't mean you get over this. You get over whatever trauma you've been through in your childhood, but by understanding where it comes from, understanding that these women, these mothers, these grandmothers, these great-grandmothers who seem to be so difficult, many of us have difficult relationships with our mothers

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: and the other women in our family. These women came through brutalization, both physical and emotional. And if we go far, far enough back, particularly in America, we're going back to slavery from where I come from, which is Colonial. And I know you have this, um, in your [00:13:00] history

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: there's a lot of that as well,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: so that you have your identity wrenched from you. When you're someone in that position, we're going back generations here, or maybe not so many generations. I'm looking at my family. My family came from the Spice Trade.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: So, you know, all those people, all the Dutch, all the Portuguese, all the British, you know, going round and looting the spices from, um, Indonesia and Malaysia and Sri Lanka and India, and, and,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: they settled in all those areas.

So I have, uh, my mother's maiden name was Van Dot. Her mother was Portuguese.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: And so they have, you know that in, they have that in their background that where they were enslaved, they were, they were brutalized. But also in my history, I have the people who were the slavers,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Right.

Sandra: who were the overseers. So

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: the whip in their hands. So both of those things are [00:14:00] part of my history, but it's understanding these women who were so badly treated. All the delicacy and softness was brutalized outta them,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: and they crawled on their elbows to give birth to us, and in their bitter tears and in their anger and their frustration, they held up all that was left of the love that they had,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: which was bringing us into the world. And

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: you know, praying somehow that we would step on their shoulders. So we are standing on the shoulders of generations of women.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah, I mean, that's a really powerful image, right? And I feel like a lot of cultures have that kind of like matriarchal, um, history and culture. Um, but the thing is [00:15:00] nowadays our society is very patriarchal. So a lot of like matriarchs, I mean, they were powerful. They were strong, like you said. Um, at the same time, they're also erased or like invisible.

So how do we sit with that reality?

Sandra: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Um, and perhaps the reality is that, uh, like you mentioned epigenetic grief, um.

Sandra: And I, I, I do, I like that question. You know, 'cause we are at this point, I mean, you know, we talk about patriarchal, um, systems and paradigms, is what we have now in what we look at as power systems and economic systems. Obviously, you know, holding onto those systems means that, you know, whoever has the reins on that has the power, but not necessarily the [00:16:00] functionality.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Right. Right? Yeah, you are right. And functionality is like, my understanding is those who are actually doing the work, who are holding whatever this is up,

Sandra: Yeah.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: they are like, you know, mothers and grandmothers and aunties and sisters still holding it up.

Sandra: Mm-hmm. Yep. They're the ones with the networks who, who, you know, make sure that everyone's covered when somebody, somebody's child gets sick and. You know, the mother is working nine to five. I work within those systems myself, when I was teaching,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: was, well, how are you making this work? It's, oh, you know, my next door neighbor is taking care of my kids.

Or, you know, somebody else is taking my child to the dentist while I'm at work. But I think this, you know, what do we do? How does this change? And we're in such a flux right

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: country and all over the world.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: just America. I think now more than ever [00:17:00] is the time to talk about compassionate leadership. So what does that look like? know, what do, what do you think when.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Is that rhetoric or,

uh, I don't know. I mean, I, I guess I shouldn't say, I don't know. I think my own version or understanding of compassionate leadership is really to have that, um. Ability and capacity as well to empathize. Um, I mean, empathy and compassion are not exactly the same thing. I do think they work hand in hand. Uh, we need that, uh, sense of empathy to be able to at least be curious and think about, I wonder what it's like for them.

So as a leader, if we are not able to empathize, then we might have a really hard time to [00:18:00] understand what might be going on in folks' lives, right? And if we cannot see that, like we don't need to know exactly what's going on, but we at least need to have a sense that something is going on. And from there we'll be able to practice compassion and feel for them and actually want to act on it as well.

And I think that's, that may be the foundation of compassionate leadership, but of course, you know, what's your version?

Sandra: No, I think that's, that's a fabulous, um, rendition of what, of what of compassionate leadership. does go back to drawing on your own experience loss and understanding that that too has a place in the professional environment. You cannot just cut, you know, we watched this over, you know. of years, um, where people, you know, we have a place, we have our life at home and we have our [00:19:00] life at work, and those two things are completely separate. We do different things in those arenas, but they are not separate. They're not discreet. So when we talk about empathy, which I think he did, um, um. Comprehensively actually, you said, you know, to be compassionate empathy. I agree. Compassionate and empathy are too, they're adjacent, shall we say. There's some implication of the two, but they're not identical is that someone in grief who is in a performative environment, whereas grief requires stillness and time, there's a conflict there.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So, uh, your, let's say one of your, I don't know, your executives is, is responsible for client liaising in some area or another, and for client liaison, it's not just a matter of [00:20:00] saying, okay, this is the project and these are the components and this is what we're going to achieve, is how is that going to happen? So there is a, a need for these skills to read the other person.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: So you're saying, okay, where are they with this? Um, how much further can we go in this particular timeline? Um, what's the end result? And, you know, are we gonna meet the deadline?

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: As a compassionate leader, will be able to see in your employees, you'll be able to see, okay, something is not. Functioning here. This person is behind in their deadlines. You know, they're, they're not for, they're not approaching their projects in the way that they usually do. And that is, that I think is compassionate leadership because it, it requires you to understand. A whole as opposed to a specific, you know, a specific goal. And so you can apply [00:21:00] compassionate leadership, you know, not necessarily, as you say, finding out all the, the, uh, the, the, the details. But understanding that somebody who is in grief is, is, it's like trying to play, play a harp while you are wearing gloves.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: All of your sensitivities are blunted. It feels like you are wrapped in, don't know, bubble wrap, and nobody can get through to you and you can't get through to anyone else. Having a compassionate leader saying, I understand this. Let's break this down and understand what is possible. Let's have something that you, that is possible for you to do so that we can work towards it. So that's compassionate leadership on that level. also extends to your vendors, your consultants, your suppliers, your contractors, your collaborators, your community members. Now, you know, in, in a professional sense, it's just, oh, well I'll take care of mine. You know? And so we feel very proud of the fact [00:22:00] that we are being compassionate leaders with our, with our people, because that's who we we're focusing on. that lens directed out

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: we work with, you are not actually engaging in compassionate leadership.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Your external partners may not have institutional support, so they're more vulnerable if they're in loss.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: And we often default to avoidance or over professionalism.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm. Yeah.

Sandra: not my place. Right? But compassion doesn't violate boundaries. It grounds them. So, and if you have a supportive response. You improve what?

Trust, reliability, mutual respect, collaboration, and which is really important [00:23:00] for the, your organization is long-term relationship stability.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: I really like the, the, not a statement, but the line. You just said compassion doesn't violate boundaries, but can you strengthen them?

Sandra: It. Yes, it strengthen. It grounds

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: It grabs them. Yes.

Sandra: saying to this person, I'm with you in this. It's not, here's your part of the deal and here's my part of the deal, and you haven't fulfilled your part of the deal. It's just, this is our deal.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: I love that one.

Sandra: you know, unless we are healthy together, none of this is going to work. Very often, you know, the, the setting of boundaries will destructive. It will deteriorate. Using that as a verb, it will deteriorate[00:24:00]

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate that. And I think that's actually a really, um. Hard thing to do, especially in this individualistic society. Everyone's like, uh, I mean, everyone's like, I need to protect my boundary. I need to protect my boundary. Um, but I guess everyone's boundary is different. So how do you approach that?

Um, it is with compassion and it's kind of like, um, uh, it almost feels like communication matter. Like how do you communicate that?

Sandra: Mm-hmm. So, obviously, you know, again, this stems from having an innate practice in your own organization so that your own people are aware. And I'm not saying that. Your own organization, your own employees, take on more. That's that's not, you know, we're not going to heal the other person, [00:25:00] um, by supporting them and doing their work. What we are doing is extending how we see our collaborators partners. And supplies so that when something doesn't come through on time, if something isn't working out, instead of saying, well, that's it, you know, it's the contract's over, or you have this deadline, you know, you haven't met this first deadline, but now you have this deadline that doesn't actually address the issue.

And

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm. No.

Sandra: not talking about solving the issue. We're talking about naming the issue.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: And once you name it, and of course you don't do it in a, in a bit in a meeting in front of everybody, it's, it's got to be more like a private conversation. It's just, you know, it feels like is not quite working out for you.

Can we, can we identify what that is

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: do we break this down so that we can make these components happen?

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah. Um, I, I [00:26:00] think what you do like. Compassionate leadership is really needed right now. And to a lot of leaders it's actually very scary 'cause a lot of people, um, while they may understand what is compassion and why it's important, it's just so hard for people to actually do it. 'cause it's,

Sandra: Yeah.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: very tender and uncomfortable.

Um.

Sandra: it is. Absolutely. But so is conflict,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: That's true.

Sandra: right? So, and we, we talk about conflict resolution all the time. This is, this is a little bit like, this is, obviously it's not the same, on the other hand, this is, isn't this what leadership is about? It's about who understands the whole picture and understands not just these immediate goals, but long-term goals.

What do we want for our company and what do we want for our communities? [00:27:00] Because if all of that is drawn in, and I think this is why reshaping of leadership with women very much taking a stronger role, a more prominent role, can lead to community success.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Understanding that it's not your individual quarterly return and bottom line. But if everybody's quarterly return and bottom line is being addressed, not solved, or met. are things that obviously are up to the individual as well, but if you have that in your network, then everybody's boat rises.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I cannot agree more. Um, I want to touch on. I think definitely relevant to your work in grief and, uh, epigenetic grief, uh, leadership, compassionate leadership is that, um, [00:28:00] at empower her and in your partnerships with different organizations, um, I learned that you oftentimes use art as a tool.

To express, to process, uh, our grief. Um, can you tell a little bit more about. I know you are a very autistic person. You take photographs and you, I have one right here in my office. And, um, you always wear these very vibrant colors and you have very, you know, um, how do we say this? Uh. Cute little like animals and, um, artwork.

Um, so I see art throughout your life and throughout your work. Can you help us connect the, you know, relationship between art and um, processing our grief?

Sandra: Sure. [00:29:00] So when you are in grief, um. People will advise you. Go to group therapy, go to see a counselor, go see a therapist. And those are very important parts of your grief journey or any journey. But when you're first in grief, you don't have language. You have a male strong of feelings, you have everything from anger and shame.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Uh, bitterness. Resentment. Um. Feeling absolutely annihilated by the idea of getting outta bed. None of that is formed. It's just feeling, it's just an overwhelm feeling and, and people will say, oh, I see that you are grieving, or, I see that you're sad and you're not sad at that moment, you are furious.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So it's all internalized at that point. And you can't get it out. And here's the drawback with going to group therapy [00:30:00] too quickly. You sit in a circle and everybody talks and all you will be thinking is about, oh my God, it's gonna be my turn to say something. And so you might appropriate another phrase or deliver something that you feel other people want you to say. So there is pressure on you to articulate before you are ready to articulate.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: And art,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: the other hand, whether it's drawing, it could be writing as well. It doesn't have to be or painting or collage or knitting or crocheting or making clay figures or anything. Um, people have made little villages actually like little 3D villages. It helps to externalize those feelings and give shape to those feelings without actually having to talk about it. And in the work that we do, uh, both at the Grief house and at the lantern, is you [00:31:00] start with a prompt or you start with a feeling, or you might not know what that feeling is. It could grow into multi-pronged hydra of feelings.

It could be blank or

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: It's a beginning to externalize what is going on inside. Once you start giving it a shape, a couple of things happen. One, it's less intimidating,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: and secondly, you can see how this grief is going to be. Part of your life, you're not gonna get over it. People, that terrible phrase, get over it.

Put yourself together. You don't get over losing somebody you love or losing a job that you love. People can be in grief for a long time, losing a job.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: Um. But you understand it more. sometimes it will be very quiet and sometimes it's very loud. But when it happens, you are a much, a much more stabilized [00:32:00] situ position to understand what's going on instead of being thrown into panic and being overwhelmed by the feeling of grief.

So grief is, um, uh, when we talk about the cingulate area in the brain.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Which is right next to the hippocampus. the singular area processes pain, the actual pain, whether it's emotion, pain, or physical pain. But it also is, uh, how you process the memory associated with someone who's lost. You've lost. And if that is denied or ignored or suppressed, it dam it literally damages and atrophies the singular.

The, I believe it's called.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think about folks who, I mean, you mentioned, right, art is. Um, not just a painting. It's not just [00:33:00] music. It's not just literature. Um, art can take so many forms and that reminds me of something. You know, I think sometimes we see in children, um, some children maybe they are kind of like late in speaking.

But they are very early on expressing, like they would draw, they would make Legos, they would, you know, using art forms to express their feelings while they might not be able to name it or like find the right words to describe it. And I think that makes a lot of sense. 'cause when you say, when you give this feeling of shape, it's less scary.

Sandra: Yeah.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: and I can't imagine, you know, thinking back, I, I wish I had that kind of tool, um, throw out my childhood. Um, but I [00:34:00] think that's, yeah, that's a really good kind of illustration of how art can help us process grief.

Sandra: And, and it also leads to, uh, what what we do is, um, when we do this, it's not a show and tell everybody demonstrates what they've done at the end of the, of the session when they, when they've made their pieces. But we split into partners. So, and the partners, so in twos you go into different parts of the, of the, at the grief house.

It's a house at the Lanter, it's this large converted church into an art space. Um, but you go privately and you exchange work with that one other person. And when the other person gets your piece, let's just say you and I exchange something, you have together a collage of photos from your phone. And they express a loss for you.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: And [00:35:00] have, uh, I've written a poem, let's

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: we exchange work. And so I will look at your photos. I'm not gonna say, oh, oh, I can see your grief here, or, I understand why you, you tell me about why you came to this and what are you trying to express. I will say thank you for this of the ocean because it reminds me of the color of a cardigan my mother used to wear.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Thank you for this picture of this blackbird, because it reminds me of the time when I my house to move to another city, as the moving truck was pulling outta the driveway. I saw a blackbird in the hedge. So I'm gonna give my response to your work, and I'm gonna talk about the feelings it evokes in me. And then you will read my, you will read my poem to me, but hopefully you can understand my writing. Uh, but with your intonation, your stress, your pitch, your volume, your hesitation, you are asking me, what on earth is this word? 'cause I don't know what it means. [00:36:00] And when you read it back to me like this, it gives me a new opening

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sandra: The whole point of this is that we see each other in this extremely vulnerable place of integrity. is who you're, this is who I'm.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So that by the end of the time that we've spent together, whether it's the, you know, a month or what, maybe it's just one, session that you come in for, you'll see yourself as this person, as the creator of great beauty. You also possess that great beauty in yourself so that the microaggressions that come at you belong to other people. They don't belong to you,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Huh.

Sandra: not who other people say you.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm. I really love that. I mean, that's really powerful. At the same time, it's very gentle as well. It's not like here, there you go. [00:37:00] Like, I'm not throwing this in your face, but I am offering it to you and you can share your interpretation with me, but I'm not gonna No pressure. Right? It's like I'm not gonna pressing you on that at the same time.

It, it is a powerful exchange of, um, expressions and feelings.

Sandra: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Um, speaking of expressions and, um. Arts and visual arts, et cetera. I know, I mean, like mentioned, I have a photograph from you, um, that you took last year, I think in Iceland and you've gone back this year. Um, I mean, Iceland's on my bucket list for sure.

And the photos you've taken and shown us are very either worldly or a breathtaking. I mean, it looks cold.[00:38:00]

Um, but I'm really curious, like what is it about Iceland, um, that just keeps you going back and my sense is it does ground you.

Sandra: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Um, so tell me, maybe tell us a little bit about how travel or seeing the world has helped you.

Sandra: Um, okay, so there's a couple of things going on here. First Iceland and secondly travel.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: Um, so I'll, I'll address Iceland first. Um. Specifically for me has, uh, been, the attraction has been Diamond Beach, which is a black lava sand beach, is connected by a channel, kind of a river to a large lagoon called Yokel Salem. And behind the lagoon is the glacier. The glacier calves parts into that. [00:39:00] which then circulate and are channeled out into the ocean. The ocean pounds them and throws them back onto the sand. So you get these extraordinary jewel like sculptures

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: It's really amazing. And I've been interested in ice for, um, a number of years now, since 2000. I think, and the thing about ICE is that it looks so solid and it isn't.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: ephemeral eternal at the same time.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: mutates constantly. You have the first freeze in the winter, I'm thinking about outside of ice. And now, um, you have the first freeze of the winter and then there's always a temperature change. In that temperature change, something happens. There's a slight melting and a reformation, and that's the moment that's just so that change occurs [00:40:00] these microscopic moments. And there's um, there's a physics, um, theorem that is if practicum actually you, with the purest of water. It's freezing point is way below zero,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah, I heard that. Mm-hmm.

Sandra: but if you add impurities, which is what happens in ice, then the formation starts and you get all these extraordinary things, so that flaw becomes beauty. And I just think that's incredible that it's, it's something that is there for a very limited period of time. So the

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm

Sandra: I've taken on Diamond Beach,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: hmm.

Sandra: pieces will be gone

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: maybe couple of weeks if,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: they last that long.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm. That's beautiful.

Sandra: so that it feels very much like the human experience of, you know, things [00:41:00] that are so painful and difficult, do change.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: Our perspective on them changes. Like my perspective on my brother's death, he died last year is different now. I first was frozen by it, when I, when I first,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: had to encounter

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yeah.

Sandra: And in travel, um, when you have mixed heritage like I do, which is Sri Lankan, Portuguese, Dutch, Anglo Indian, and Scots, you are, you tend to live in liminal space. And so travel. Makes you far more observant and absorbative of those places that are, you know, that are new to you,

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm

Sandra: but that you can also make connections with.

And that also is ephemeral

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: mm-hmm.

Sandra I, I went to Iceland in 2019. I went back last year and I went this year, and it was different each time.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Um, of course.

Sandra: So it's, it's a [00:42:00] combination of the actual thing itself. Let's just take ice as an example. For somebody else, it might be portraiture and the self that is constantly changing

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: so that it's not that your grief changes. The loss is the loss.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: You go through change

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Um.

Sandra: more compassion. This is the gift of grief, is that your compassion just deepens and deepens and widens, and widens so that you know your capacity for compassionate leadership just is limitless.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: I really appreciate that. And of course it, I mean, the way you describe Iceland and your experience with travel, uh, and how can that. Shape you and reshape you as a person. It's beautiful, right? It's dynamic and it's fluid like it flows as we grow as a person. I think that part is [00:43:00] really beautiful. And I also think, you know, when you mention the gift of grief.

It's not that the grief changes, but our capacity change. Um, and that reminds me of something I heard, uh, recently is that, um, people, so this, this, uh, therapist, it's a, it's a therapist, I believe they said these days people really advocate for protect my mental health. Like people say that a lot and from their perspective, sure, it is valid.

We do need to protect our mental health. At the same time, it's so overly used and they, and they think maybe a better way to address this mental health or or wellness issue that we have. This is, yes, protect and expand our mental capacity.

Sandra: Absolutely. I love that.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: [00:44:00] Yeah, and I think what you just said really kind of reminds me of that, and I was like, that really makes sense.

Sandra: So it's, you know, if we look at the, the, the, the corollary between art and leadership, as an artist, you have to keep changing, you have to keep morphing. Even if you as an artist take a picture of the same place every day for a year. There will always be change. So it's change, it's adaptability and flexibility.

That's how we've evolved because of those attributes. Being able to be flexible and to absorb and and reflect change.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: yeah.

Sandra: But you also have to be, you mentioned in this expansive and vulnerable place, you have to take the risk, right? And so to, you know, safe leadership just is an oxymoron. It cannot, it cannot be, has to be risk taking. [00:45:00] And so this risk of being saying, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable with my people, with myself, with my partners and collaborators and vendors. That's part of being an extraordinary leader. Just as much as taking these risks. I'm thinking about all the people that I know, the dear friends that I know who are artists, constantly taking risks. how you make amazing art and how you begin to be

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: more expansive and more in the world and more knowledgeable about what you are exploring. Growing yourself to a place where you understand that, that that art, the art of growing is the

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Yes. Yeah.

Oh gosh, that is really wise and uh, I think that's something for a lot of us is [00:46:00] like a lifetime journey. Um, and, uh, yeah, so as we near kind of the end of our conversation, and I mean, I'm learning a lot and every time I talk with you Sandra, I feel like okay, I'm, I'm getting a class here. Um. At the same time, it's not like a lecture, you know, it's, it's very, it's very nurturing and it's very illuminating at the same time.

So thank you very much.

Sandra: Thank

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: And yeah, and of course we want more people to know about your work and learn from you and work with you. Um, tell us where people can find you.

Sandra: So, uh, a few things coming up. Um, you can reach me at my website, empower her to rise.com. I'm also on LinkedIn. Um, I'll be talking about compassionate [00:47:00] leadership at the international leadership. Conference in New Orleans at the end of January, which will be

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Cool.

Sandra: fabulous.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Oh, that's awesome.

Sandra: looking forward to that. And also at the Healthy Work Site Summit in March in Washington, be talking about the illusion of control and the fear of falling apart.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm-hmm.

Sandra: And then in June, albeit Wisconsin, the University of Wisconsin, again about, you know, grief and the fear of falling apart. So there's.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: That's fantastic. Yeah, we'll have to list. Um, the engagements, the speaking engagements you have as well, um, so that folks can find you. Um, and I'm just really grateful that, you know, you come here today and I know you came back from Iceland recently, and of course travel is also very tiring. [00:48:00] So I appreciate you giving us this time today.

Sandra: Thank you.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: yeah.

Sandra: wanna, I just wanna hop in Joe and say, I've been watching this podcast when it was a very fledgling little thing, and you've grown it into this powerful, illuminating, generous, and, and inclusive platform for so many people whose voices would not be heard, were it not for you.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Hmm.

Sandra: So I, I just want to say how grateful we are for the work that you are doing. If this, I just wanna speak to your listeners right now. This is one woman who walks the walk. She doesn't just talk about stuff, she practices it. So if, when we talk about intersectionality, you'll find her in the woods with her dog going on hikes, you'll, this is not, not a practice camper, but she will put herself out there and go camping. This is not somebody who is naturally. Putting herself out there for everybody. There's a little, you know, a little [00:49:00] reticence sometimes, but because of the work that you are doing, you are practicing it and we so appreciate that honesty love that you give.

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: Mm. Thank you. I feel seen.

Sandra: You should, you

zhou_1_12-03-2025_100805: I appreciate that. Yeah. For people out there, please. You know, give our podcast some love and, uh, contact our guests on this program. 'cause every single one comes here giving us a gift. And, um, and that's generosity and I think that's, you know, community care and love. And we do not take that for granted. Um, wow.

Okay. Uh, with that. And, um, I'm gonna say I'll see you soon, Sandra. Thank you very much. Yeah, I'll stop [00:50:00] here.